Government & Public Sector Section 20th Anniversary: Part 2
By Terri Jones
In Part 1, you were introduced to the past Chairs of the Government & Public Sector Section. I had the privilege of interviewing seventeen past chairs of the section. In addition to telling us what they remember most about their time as chair, they also responded to these three questions:
What impact has the GPS Section had on your career in public service?
What do you tell law students about careers in public service?
What could the GPS Section do that it has not done already?
What impact has the GPS Section had on your career in public service?
Dan McLawhorn
I saw the significant advantages from bringing together attorneys in the practice area and the benefit from all sectors of the practice area sharing experiences. As a State government attorney, I was also acutely aware that we had no real voice in legislative matters as a practice group. The voice of local government attorneys was fractured, and there was no single voice to advocate for all government attorneys. I saw the NCBA as that opportunity.
Gill Beck
Developed great friends. Built a network of GPS contacts in state and local government.
Ralph Karpinos
As an essentially solo in-house attorney in Chapel Hill for many years, I welcomed the opportunities to develop contacts with attorneys in other agencies and local government organizations to learn and to develop contacts when issues did come up involving, for example, complex environmental problems and new legislation and regulations at the state as well as the federal level which impacted local government operations.
Ann Wall
GPS has provided me with connections to people I might otherwise never have met, particularly local government attorneys. I have gained invaluable practical and legal information through newsletters, CLEs, Council meetings, and sharing of sample policies and procedures by GPS members. GPS has enabled me to make connections between my work in state government with that of peers in local and federal government. This has sometimes permitted me to share information useful to those peers that I might not have thought would be useful if I did not have the GPS connection. GPS has often alerted me to issues that begin at the local level and then percolate up to affect those of us in state government service, for example with regard to First Amendment Auditors. GPS has also given me the opportunity to interact with speakers and experts from the law schools and School of Government as well as other fields. Through GPS, I have had the privilege of speaking to law students about the importance and value of government service. Being a member of GPS and the Section Councils or Committees has meant that I have been alerted early to significant cases impacting government attorneys. For example, I learned of the McCormick v. Hansen case at a GPS Council meeting, with that meeting ultimately leading to a group working to get the law changed to restore protections for government attorneys.
Mark Payne
Excellent connections with excellent attorneys and excellent CLEs.
David Kirkman
Initiatives – (1) Positional or agency memberships for government attorneys (started when I was membership chair); (2) regularly making presentations re: GPS careers at law schools throughout the state; (3) steady growth of the section (went from small to medium-sized); and (4) naming the section’s annual award after Grainger Barrett.
Jim Cauley
Introduced me to others who have similar practices and to persons who serve as counsel for various state agencies. Some of those contacts and relationships that began within the section have continued to grow outside of the section’s work.
Jeff Sugg
The section has provided an exceptional opportunity to meet talented and very diverse practitioners, who later became friends.
Frank Whitney
Serving on the GPS Section has significantly broadened my personal network of public service attorneys. I did not know many public sector attorneys other than those practicing criminal justice. Through the section I have met and now know public sector attorneys at the local, state, and federal level.
John Schifano
Getting to know other lawyers in different governmental practice areas that often address the same issues, such as zealously advocating for your client’s position, achieving justice, and keeping your white hat clean without trying to annihilate the other side (which is often John & Jane Q. Public).
Nicolette Fulton
The GPS Section has allowed me to get to know other attorneys, in both public and private practice, whom I would not have likely met otherwise that I can talk to confidently about issues as they may arise. Also, through the GPS Section I have been able to see, and in some cases help develop, the laws and regulations facing my client as they emerge. Being ahead of a challenge is a great benefit to any attorney.
Aimee Scotton
It has been both enlightening and encouraging to meet attorneys across all areas of government practice and to realize that we all struggle with the same things – public records, the zealous representation of our clients (sometimes determining who our “client” actually is), etc.
Mike Thelen
While I haven’t publicly served, professionally, since my federal clerkship out of law school, the chair position nonetheless had significant impact on my understanding toward and appreciation for those who serve professionally each and every day. The chair position, beyond the great the honor it is, gave me much better visibility than I had from the private side into the viewpoints, purposes, pressures, and personalities with which I interact on a daily basis in my land use and local government practice. I believe that such a better understanding (at all levels, but I can only do my part) is what leads to better discussions, processes, and outcomes for our people and our state. I’d also like to think I made some good, lasting friendships along the way, too.
Matt Mason
I was already sold on my career in public service, but GPS has affirmed it and also informed the standards that I try to reach. Both those things have come from the interactions with peers in the section. It’s not hard for me to find people here that I look up to as professional standard-bearers; you’d almost have to try to not find that in this section. Those are impactful for me.
Jennifer Jones
I have appreciated the ability to network with other government attorneys at all levels, local, state and federal.
Advice for Law Students
Dan McLawhorn
I talked with students about the advantages of public service, especially in the AG’s Office, where significant responsibilities were added, such as trial court and appellate court work. By then, I had joined the Raleigh City Attorney’s Office and could also speak from that perspective.
Gill Beck
Great way to serve our state and nation!
Ralph Karpinos
Public and Governmental Legal Service can be demanding but rewarding. Compared to some areas of private practice, the work may be more predictable. The range of issues to deal with can be broad or narrow depending on the size of the agency and complexity of the subject matter. You will meet and learn from dedicated and hard-working public servants who are advocating for their particular clients and committed to promoting the general welfare and common good.
Ann Wall
That I still believe public service is a high calling. That it is not easy but is definitely worthwhile.
Mark Payne
A career in public service is consistently interesting work and consistently worthwhile work.
Jim Cauley
It’s a fun way to make a living. I am not aware of any practice area that has the variety of legal problems encountered every day in representing local governments.
Jeff Sugg
I generally focus on the opportunities provided by public sector law to engage in problem solving. In my capacity, I am not a policy maker and must never forget my role. However, in the present time frame, when the currents of division are strong, it is a pleasure to have the opportunity to be viewed as a neutral party who is seeking to offer legally sustainable options to the people who have been elected to make policy decisions. Once the decision is made, in-house legal counsel then has the opportunity to help with the implementation of the policies and training used by operational departments within the government to carry out (hopefully, in an efficient, effective, and lawful manner) the policy decisions made by the elected officials. The opportunity to earn a living while providing support to problem-solving efforts by public servants is uniquely available to attorneys who are willing to pursue a public sector career.
Frank Whitney
A public service practice, while generally less financially rewarding than a traditional private sector practice, is frequently more personally fulfilling and enjoyable.
John Schifano
Do it. You most likely won’t make the cover of Lawyers Weekly for either good reasons or bad, but you can effectuate positive change incrementally and often, if positive change for you is helping to provide a new park for kids to play in, playing a role in clean water and sanitary sewer, having a role in creating a sustainable community that people like to call their hometown, or a host of other white hat wearing activities.
Nicolette Fulton
No day is like the other, and each day brings its own rewards and challenges. As a lawyer in public service, I have the privilege of knowing that what I do serves my client and my community. Seeing the impact of what you do and its importance to the community is a benefit without compare. (Also, no billable hours!)
Aimee Scotton
Public service is very rewarding. You are always working for the public good, and while you might not ever get recognition for it, you know that everything you do is aimed at making things better.
Mike Thelen
I tell them to talk to the real heroes: those in public service!
Matt Mason
We recently participated, along with the other NCBA sections, in a meet and greet with 1Ls at Wake Forest Law School. Naturally, they ask “what is it that you do?” One of the beauties of my career in local government is that it remains wide-ranging, touching a lot of content areas and happening amid differing, sometimes challenging, dynamics. With law students, I give some concrete examples to avoid being too vague and to show that most of the things that they may gravitate towards are things that we do. But it’s actually an accurate statement that I can never fully predict what my job will involve tomorrow. Across its range, though, it feels like the efforts contribute. Those are the messages I try to convey.
Jennifer Jones
Public Service is truly fulfilling and a viable long-term career. It often requires you to do something else first, such as get experience in a law firm, but there are many opportunities to do different kinds of law within government.
The Future of the Section
Gill Beck
Keep doing what it has been doing.
Ann Wall
I have always believed that the Section Councils can do more to communicate with the members about the work of the section. We need to figure out a way to convince more federal and state attorneys that the section has value to them. We can definitely work harder to convince state agencies to use the positional membership option to support their attorneys by showing them the value of the section to their attorneys’ practice on their behalf. We need to offer more non-CLE informational sessions to members, and sometimes invite non-members to participate as another way to entice them to join. We need to expand the diversity of the Section Council in all ways, from race to geography to types of governmental practice. We need to continue the long-term work of convincing the private bar that we are not less than they are or have less quality and expertise just because we make less money. We need to continue to assess the needs of our members and ways that we can help them with the unique aspects of governmental practice. One thing that was approved years ago but we have never had time or resources to work on but would be a definite enticement for state agency attorneys would be to complete the General Counsels’ manual or guide or whatever one calls it – a fingertip guide useful particularly to all those private practitioners who come into government and do not realize all the differences from private practice. We need to offer more resources on the website for members – sample policies, procedures, forms – whatever we can identify that would be valuable to them. We need to get more members and members of the Young Lawyers Division actively involved in the work of the section.
Mark Payne
More use of the communities discussion posts as a listserv.
Jim Cauley
Continue reaching out to young up-and-coming attorneys in the public sector, particularly those in state government positions. I have found that some of the best and brightest are serving attorneys for state and local governments.
Frank Whitney
I would like the section to increase its summer law clerk public sector scholarship program, especially since many public sector summer law clerks volunteer their service.
John Schifano
The GPS section has done a tremendous job of outreach in the past to law schools and has provided scholarships to summer legal interns working in the public sector. The CLEs are excellent for the members, maybe not as attractive for members of the Association in general. Keeping those efforts up with an eye on perhaps something reaching across other practice areas for lawyers and other student interest areas such as litigation, criminal, or constitutional law.
Nicolette Fulton
GPS has done much to partner with the Administrative Law and Zoning, Planning, & Land Use Sections; however, in the course of our practice, there are other areas where networking and partnership would be beneficial, particularly Corporate Counsel, Environment, Energy & Natural Resources Law (EENR), Litigation, and Real Property.
Aimee Scotton
The GPS Section constantly works at improving things for its members – through the development of internship programs, opportunities for pro bono service, and the provision of CLE’s that are relevant and timely for its members. There has been an effort in the last few years to add more networking and social events. Although attendance at these events has been spotty, I suggest that they continue to be offered. One of the greatest resources that government attorneys have is each other, and these types of events help us to increase those resources.
Mike Thelen
I think “sub groups” between federal and state/local service would be a good idea, and program accordingly while maintaining an umbrella GPS section covering both. While both “public service,” and inextricably intertwined in that sense, I think the GPS section (and the constituent members) would benefit from not having to appeal at all times to both “sub groups” and, in doing so, risking tepidity to both.
Matt Mason
I’m sold on the product. The more people that we can reach who may benefit from it, the better.
Jennifer Jones
GPS has done so much! Networking and CLE being the main ones. Maybe facilitating a mentoring program, or small groups of similarly-situated attorneys connecting over coffee or zoom to talk about their pressing issues and trends.
I am looking forward to the next 20 years of the Government and Public Sector Section and encourage all law students to consider a career in government or public service as well as membership in the GPS Section.
Terri Jones is the Town Attorney for the Town of Garner and currently the Vice-Chair of the GPS Section Council and credits her “sister-in-spirit” and past Chair Jennifer Jones for convincing her to serve on the GPS Section Council and to become an officer.